Game Changer Purpose
The Game Changer Purpose Podcast is created to help you win in life and leadership. We sit down with game-changing leaders who share their journeys and the lessons they've learned. Game Changer Purpose will inspire, encourage, and equip you with the tools to live out your calling and help you maximize your influence for maximum impact.
Game Changer Purpose
The Multiethnic Church with Jamison Horton
In this episode of the i2 podcast, Josh Dotzler and Jamison Horton talk about the modern Church, diversity, and racial reconciliation. Jamison shares his story and how he came to be a pastor and have a passion for the multi-ethnic church. They challenge listeners to get out of their comfort zone and to listen to those in their church that are different than themselves.
Jamison is the Co-Lead Pastor at City Light Benson in Omaha, Nebraska.
Welcome to the i2 Podcast and as always, so excited to be with anybody and everyone who's listening. I'm joined today by a great friend of mine. We're going to talk about what does it look like to really have a multi-ethnic church, a multi-ethnic expression? He's a pastor, a leader, is in a multi-ethnic relationship, good looking guy. My friend, pastor Jamison Horton. Pastor J, what's up, man!
:Love my man. So good to be with you, my man, thanks for inviting me to be on with you. Man. I'm so glad that we were able to make this happen and I'm excited for a couple of reasons. Number one, our passion just as a podcast is to see the influence in everyone lead to impact everywhere. And we know that in the world we're living in, there's so much racial tension, division, and we believe, and I know you believe, and this is why I'm excited to talk, that the church has to be at the center of change when it comes to the division that our world is facing. A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:And I know that's totally your heart and you're in the middle of doing that with the church that you lead-- CityLight Benson. I'd love to maybe just talk a little bit about your story, your journey. Obviously you're a pastor today. You're in a diverse relationship with your beautiful wife, amazing wife. I just have to say maybe the most likable people that I've ever met in my life. You and your wife Raquel are amazing. But I'd love to talk about your journey and how'd you get to this space where this was so much a part of your heart and then a part of the work that you're doing. Talk to me about growing up. I know your dad was a pastor. What type of church you grew up in and just, just a little bit about your story.
:Yeah. Well, if you were to ever ask younger Jamison who grew up in my dad's church, if I would ever be a part of multi-ethnic church I would've been like not a chance. My dad was raised in the South, grew up in the mid fifties and sixties during the segregation and civil rights movement. My mom was well, in the small towns of Arkansas. And so my father saw a lot of racial injustice to his family, to himself. And through that kind of build a lot of walls toward white people for even cops. And so, coming out of that, my dad planted a church in Omaha, North Omaha here in 1990, a little small black church. I grew up playing the organ. My brother played the drums and that was the band. There was no band, it was just a big family. It was a beautiful expression. I love when my dad taught. I loved the passion and worship. My dad would execute the texts like crazy and the service was an hour and a half. So he was studious in the word and studied it. But I grew up church-wide in a black context, but my neighborhood was all white. And so, we were two or three of black families in this neighborhood in Omaha. And so I had to navigate that from church to neighborhood. Then my school though was diverse. So I had white friends, black friends, Hispanic friends, but I never invited them or felt even comfortable inviting them ever to my neighborhood or to my church. So I would invite my black friends to my neighborhood, and then invite my white friends to my church. Like there's three places of Jamison, trying to operate and navigate. And so during the days of being with my dad, he would say,'Hey, you can work with white people, go to school with white people, but we don't worship with white people.' And so if a white person would have ever came into my father's church for real, he would have been like you are in the wrong place. But I grew up wanting to be like my pops, wanting to preach like my pops, I thought I was gonna lead a black church, my dad was grooming me to take over his church. And at the time it was all that I knew, Josh. It was all I knew. But it wasn't until at the age of 18, I found out I was having my son, which caused a little bit of conflict between me and my dad, probably more so internally of me. And so, I found out, I left my father's church. And my mom, when they got divorced, started going to an all white church, which is the first time I ever stepped into predominantly white church.
Speaker 2:And Josh, let me tell you, the first time I stepped in, there was singing. The pastor was leading from the acoustic guitar, and I'm like,'this is not God. I don't know what this is.' I was used to the organ bumping.
:You probably couldn't feel it. I couldn't feel it! I was like'man, what is this?'. Great lyrics, not a lot of beat. Not a lot of beat, not a lot of rhythm. I sat back and was like,'this is not what I want to be a part of.' But I remember when I left my dad's church and I stepped into this place, this actually was a place for healing for me. I remember the pastor specifically call for few people to be prayed for. And I remember this moment where I was really hurting that a white pastor actually prayed for me. And so from there, I gave my life to Jesus. And at the time this church was moving toward being multi-ethnic as well, literally a block from my dad's church. I started going to another church and then that even caused more tension between me my dad. My dad said, he said,'Jamison, how could you go to a white man's church?' And I was like, it was dynamic. It was diverse, multicultural. And it was in that place where I felt that God had called me to be, and I didn't want to go back to what I was used to. So God saved me man. I was like, how could I not worship with my white brothers and sisters? I was like, this is the kingdom, this is what it's supposed to be. A nd so yeah, even a t that, my f ather there was still just tension and he didn't a ccept t hat. And our relationship was broken because I w ould not take over his church and i t k ind o f left that. And you said this, I learned from you that hurt people, hurt people. My dad never got healed from the wounds of his past, and that could have trickled down to me. In fact, it did. Until I broke out of that, I was like, black church, this is our expression, this is how we do it. And God moved me out of that. So I would not be here, had God not touched my heart all those years ago when that happened in my life.
Speaker 1:Good man. So, so, so good. And I love the way you ended there talking about how hurt people hurt people and your dad's experiences. Because that was a question I wanted to ask you. Obviously, he was living out of his experiences. His church expression was a result of things he had experienced back in the day. Do you know what some of those experiences were? Do you know some of the racial tension challenges? Because I mean, he lived with a very strong sense that man, I should not worship with people who are not black. And we know that Sunday is one of the most segregated days of the week. And a lot of it is because of decisions that we make. But like with your dad specifically, do you know what some of those experiences were that helped shape him?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So my dad got saved in little small church in Arkansas. And if you know anything about church history, black churches really started out of not being able to worship with white people. And so they started this out and that's when community happened, that's where they even received instructions on the next move in the civil rights movement. So this is what my dad was used to and grew up in. And couple that with how white people treated blacks in his time. And him s eeing his dad get abused by cops. My dad told me a story of h im coming home from school on a bus and seeing his dad in the ditch f rom what the cops did to him. A nd h e'd h ave to stop the bus and help his dad home. Just what that did to him. S o he already had the stain from what happened in his life a nd the trauma that comes from that. So that built up, a nd he had this way of, you t alk about an educated man. Talk about a man who came from literally nothing with 13 brothers and sisters. When I say poor, it was the poorest o f t he poor. How he came up education-wise and pr essed t hrough that, and had executive jobs. Worked at M utual of Omaha here and my mom worked at ConAgra. So th ey're w orking in predominantly white spaces and yet still th eir e xpression at church is like they don't know what we face. And he o ftentimes pr eached t o black people because of the struggle that they were facing the struggle in the world and it spoke to them in a way that they can resonate with. So those experiences really shaped my dad's view of church.
Speaker 1:I think that's so huge because I think there is a way we do things based out of tradition and history, and specifically for the black community man, there was some real hurt and pain. And for your dad to see his dad get treated by white people in a certain way, and to have his own experiences in the church really was birthed out of being a refuge for the black community. And so you look at the history and then even for your parents to work in a predominantly white context, I'm sure there was racial discrimination. They felt like they were always fighting to get ahead constantly. Like they didn't get the same opportunities that the average white person did. All legitimate reasons for them to live with a certain paradigm. And on the flip side, it was your experience that kind of pulled you out of that context, that gave you a new kind of set of lenses to start to see life through. But talk about that transition. Because I think one of the things in the black community that is a challenge in that we have to work through, is like when you leave the black church and you head to the multi-ethnic church. We talk a lot about the white community and there's a lot to talk about there, but in the black community, when you make that transition, you are not viewed in a great light. And I know that's a hard transition to make. So talk about that, not just with your dad, but maybe with other relationships and just how the black community kind of views the transition from the all black church to a multi-ethnic or a white person, pastor-led church.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So oftentimes so in my dad's church, just for him, being a pastor and in the black community, like they hold that to a prestigious level. It's huge. When they pass around your name in the black community it's huge. They view us in a certain way. So even being a pastor's kid was viewed in that way. I probably got more pushback, not so much from my friends, but from my dad's friends. I remember black pastors would come and they were talking to my dad and I'd be there, and they'd be like,'why are you going to a white man's church? Why are you not back here supporting your dad? Why would you leave this? The community needs you. Why would you do this?' And so the push back and the fight within me was,'am I leaving my friends and black church? Am I disowning what my dad built and did? Can I carry a legacy that my dad was really trying to entrust in me to carry? And so you almost feel, well you do you feel this tension of,'I loved it, but I know there's more.' But I love it. I love the church, I love the people, I love what it embodied. Man. Just I feel like God's called me to do so much more. And then now you're viewed as a sellout. You're viewed as man, we love our community, so you joined the, they say the enemy. Now you're part of the enemy and the problem, not the solution. And so all this internal wrestling within my heart was big. And I left what I grew up loving Josh. I left growing up what I loved. You talk about a family, the music, the expression of love, the community. Like, I left it. It's the first one. And it was hard. It was. It was very hard because now it almost felt, Josh, when I left, I had to learn a new language. When I was going to a multi-ethnic church, it was led by white people. It was a different language and style preaching, teaching and people, like it was a whole different language I had to navigate through. And even how I talked and expressed myself here at my dad's church-- that was accepted, that was commonality. Wasn't so accepted in this new church that I was at. And I had to learn how to navigate that, and it was an internal wrestling bro, for a while, even going to identity like,'who am I, how do I fit in now into this new context? It wasn't what I was used to. It wasn't even where I saw myself being, when I was younger, and wrestling that out, and walking through that, and now entering into a place where doors aren't open for me. I'm walking into a place where I have to start from zero and show that I was qualified to be a part and to lead. And then for white people to trust a young black man with spirituality and concerns and their life was huge. And so that was a big weight that I had to fight through man.
Speaker 1:No, that's so good. And I think statistics show even today, many of the multi-ethnic churches are led by white leaders. And so even though you're entering into this, kind of ideally multi-ethnic environment, it was really a white-led environment. And I think Bryan Loritts, in his book, Insider Outsider talks about white evangelicalism. And so even though you felt like God was doing something different in you, you enter this environment, that's really white-led, white-shaped in terms of the theology, the strategy, the language that's being shared and communicated. You talked about some of those challenges. What was it that kept you there? What was it that was inspiring, or you really felt like,'man, there's something here that I've g otta be a part of this?'
Speaker 2:Wow. There's one moment.
:Other than your mom being there? Mom was there. There was a moment, Josh, where, I I still don't know why I was upset, but I had...So there we have Sundays, and we have Wednesday Bible study. I remember showing up and I was mad at white people. I don't know something happened in that day. I still don't know what happened in my life then, but I just know, I showed up really angry. And the youth pastor was white and he was one of my good friends then. And I remember having to show up and still worship Jesus and I'm mad at white people. And I remember I walked off, he ran up to talk and he said'Hey, what's going on?' And I was like,'bro, I don't want to talk right now.' And he said,'no, let's talk it out.' And so I was like,'I'm mad at white people. I don't know. You know, I'm just really frustrated.' And it was at that time he spoke, he said,'Jamison, so what you're angry at right now, that's what God's gonna use you to help others in the future.' And I was like, I didn't want that. I was like,'dang, that ain't what I'm trying to hear in this moment.' But then it became a calling like, okay, what I'm facing right now, I wonder if God is calling me to live this out through my frustrations, through my anger. I wonder if God wants to use it. And then I just knew from that point, like, I'm called to this. I'm going to have friends say,'Hey Jamison, why don't you come over here, why don't you do this?' I can't. I'm called to this. And I'm called to do this in the frustrations and the unknown. I was called to it. And so I just knew then that God called me to it. And that's what led me to keep me pushing for what He was taking me to. It wasn't easy, man. Like it was very hard. It was an identity struggle that really had to face and to wrestle out. And still even at times within I find myself still doing that. But I feel like God equipped me. He wired me to do it. And starting to see now the fruit of it a little bit.
Speaker 1:Well, one thing I'm interested in, we haven't really talked about this, but I think about my own story and it's almost like the whole code switching/figuring out who you are. And so you go from this all black environment where you feel comfortable. I mean, you could play the keys like nobody's business. You could play the drums, you know the beats. That what you grew up in. Then you go to an all white church, you have to learn their language, their rhythms, their culture. Like did you try to emulate and imitate what they were doing to try to connect and lead? That's one question. But then we got a chance to work together for a little while and we're trying to build a multi-ethnic church at Bridge, and diverse. And I feel like I remember a season where you're reading the new Jim Crow. You were wrestling with all these things too, and again, I'm speaking kind of from my own experience, but it's like, you're in these environments, you're trying to be who these environments say you should be. But then you're also wrestling with who you really are. And like what that looks like. I don't know, man, like speaking to that, I don't know what that journey looked like for you, but it seemed like there was even a turning point when we were working together where it was like,'man, I identify with this, I identify with this, but there's something in me too. Like I can't lose the roots of who I am.'
Speaker 2:Yeah. There was a place, and Loritts talks about it in Insider Outsider. He put language to it that I had divorced the black church. I said I got to a place where I feel like now I feel like I know more and I'm better. The church is bigger, and now I'm more influenced, now I'm going to go back and try to save the black church. Let me go tell my dad what he did wrong. Let me tell him how I'm doing this, this and this. So actually the battle was leaving the black church and trying to embrace this new culture. But in this new culture was never speaking to any of the issues my dad ever spoke to. We weren't helping the family. I remember walking in. She said I remember my dad took me to one of the worst areas in Omaha at the time, and we're delivering food and meals. And most of the churches came from the hardship. But that was never happening right here. So although it's not right here, like I'm torn with helping this and that was hard. And then how do I speak to that in a majority white culture that really has no clue or context of what's going on. And then you're considered all this. They considered the angry black men. I was always making sure my face didn't look mad, make sure my posture didn't look angry, and all that kind of stuff. So I'm wrestling with that then when I came over to Bridge, it was a new style. It was a new expression. It was beautiful, but it's a new expression. And how do I give voice to what's happening in me? I still remember the first message I showed you and it was at a table and I'm trying to wrestle with how do I bridge the black church and the white? How do I be the heart for God? How can I be me, even? It took a while. It was a journey. I finally got to his place. Josh, it w as probably this year, a little bit of this year. I'll talk to you about the position with the COB, b ut I was finally saying,'man, God, I want to be how you created me to be. And I believe you actually brought me through the black church for a reason.' And i t w as beautiful and it was amazing. And t here's things in there that I love. And God helped bring that into bridging i t t o where now. celebrate it you have me now. So I actually celebrate it now rather than condemn it.
Speaker 1:Bro. So good. Because I think of my own story, which is similar. Now I would say, growing up and living and being in the inner city, trying to build a church, but then going to conferences that are majority led by white people. And again, nothing wrong. But the success stories, the leaders, the books I was reading, like all had a bent to them. And I would try to take that and I would try to model it and learn from it and use it. And after years it was like, man, this is not translating the same that it would in another context. And even the diversity of leaders that we had on our team. I remember just thinking like, man, for so long I tried to mold people into a certain communication style or a certain leadership style based on what I was learning, which was from a predominantly white culture, And not fully understanding or embracing the diversity of experiences and cultures. And that was probably a couple of years ago. And part of it was my own journey too. And being like,'man, I'm not black. I'm not white. I'm this mixed dude that, I like this and I like this and I like to teach, but man, I like to experience some things.' And so my own journey of saying,'God, who have you created me to be?' And becoming more comfortable in that. And that's exactly what I hear you saying too. But I do think because some of the dominant voices of success have been pictured a certain way, you try to latch onto those instead of taking all the experiences. And instead of the black church and the white church saying, man, there's beautiful things from both sides. And how do we marry those two and really, that's what you're trying to do now. I mean, you joined a church. I don't know how long ago it's been now, but you joined a church. And it was a church that was a certain culture and you come in and you're trying to shift some of that culture and they intentionally wanted to see change happen with you. Tell us about how that journey and experience has been.
Speaker 2:Let me see where you want me to start at. Okay.
:See God gave you all these experiences for a reason. Now He's like,'I want to see if you're going to do something with them.'
Speaker 2:Well, I remember the first... So for listeners, I was planting a church, came out of Bridge and we were going to plant church two years ago, a multi-ethnic church. And we're in the process of that and where I'm at now, CityLight Benson is a predominantly white church, probably 95% at the time. And the church dynamics were changing. The co-lead pastor had left, and they want to reflect their community right here. Somehow I showed up at a worship space for leaders and got to know some of the CityLight people and got invited to come preach here. And from there they were like, how can we do this together? I wasn't looking for it. It wasn't, Josh, this was not a part of my plan. I was supposed to be doing it way in a different section of the city and God saw differently. And I remember asking God, I said,'how and why would you want me to do this?' And He spoke two things two years ago that I'll never forget before I even started the journey. He said,'one, this is not about you. It's bigger. And two, it's gonna look a lot different than how you think.' And He told me that. I only remember a few moments when the Holy Spirit kind of like really speaks to me. I just remember that moment. He said,'I need you to solidify this in your heart before you do anything else.' I was like, yeah, I want to be different for sure, and not about me for sure. And I kept looking for it. About a few months later, CLB opens its doors to say, hey, let's do this together. So now I'm walking into a total different kind... so Josh, I've never transitioned to a church. It's a new senior leadership. How do you do all that? And it wants to become multi-ethnic. You just take all those dynamics. I'm literally thinking, the first time do I wear J's or do I wear boots when I preach. And internally, how would they perceive if I were J's while I preach? All these internal expectations that I've had. And so I walked into that and I ask them a question. They say,'hey, what's your vision for the church?' I said,'well what does the elementary school across the street look like?' They said,'well, it's diverse.' I said,'well, our church should reflect the elementary school across the street. If every kid that goes there, can't come in and say, they can see themselves here. We have a problem. We have an issue.' So that was like, hey, let's do it. And so from there little by little we've been transitioning. It started with leadership from me and Tyler, who is my white co-leader and, just took from there. How do we lead out together in this? How do we celebrate and champion each other, our strengths, how God has created us? From there, say,'okay, how do we take that to the congregation?' How do they navigate this?' And now new relationships. And now you've got a black leader who preaches differently, who talks a little bit differently. The worship sounds a little bit different. And that's a lot of different, Josh. Like that's a lot of change and different. And I remember specifically one time it was probably the first month, where the biggest challenge when I was standing, ge tting r eady to preach and I get up and I look, and I'm the only black person in the room. And at that moment I was like, God, I don't know if you ca lled m e to this. I d on't feel, even though I'm leading it, I didn't even feel like I could be a p a rt. So I remember I told our elders the next week, I said,'hey, I just wa nt t o let you know how this past Sunday was'. They said'it was great, it was promising'. I said,'I was the only black person in the room.' And just their co nversation s aid,'we didn't even recognize it?' So that was a huge moment when I said,'okay, God, we've got to change and be different so that when a black person, a Hispanic person walks in a r oom, they don't feel like we we ren't t hinking about them. Where they feel like, ok ay, I can be a part of this and not feel isolated. And that took some big, courageous changes. Our leadership changes. Our worship changes. I still remember a few songs been played. I shared this to our congregation this past Sunday. How uncomfortable it was being in the room an d h earing this song, I mean, it just was rock so ng. I said, in my head,'no black person is e ver going to walk in through these doors. It was uncomfortable, but I believe when we step into those uncomfortable places, God does the most change in our lives and in u s. And we've been navigating that. And it has to start with the leadership, with us fi rst, be fore i t trickled down to our congregation. So it's b een a huge transition ma n.
Speaker 1:Isn't it so interesting that there's an entire congregation that couldn't, and didn't see what you saw. You were one person. There's an entire congregation there, but you're the only one who recognized the lack of diversity in that space. And I think that seems to be the narrative at so many churches and so many organizations. We can only see what we're conditioned to see. And most of us are conditioned to see consistent with what we know. And so, as a result, churches are segregated. Businesses are segregated. And businesses it seems like, are doing a much better job of bringing in voices and eyes to help them recognize what they can't see, because they recognize that their business is dependent on diversity, on engaging people from different sectors. And if you want to have more business, man, you better represent more people. But churches seem like, for so long, we can get away with a certain demographic because the bills are paid and people are showing up and it may or may not represent the broader community. But man, we've got people showing up and it's all right.
:And it's easier. We've created in the Western Church, churches where I can go to a specific genre and I can reach a specific group that look just like me, who I know is going to... I mean, when people think about planting a church, it's not in the inner city of cities. It's to the suburban areas where we look like them, talk like them, act like them, think like them, live like them. Still the number one in church growth is through word of mouth. My sanctuary reflects the people that are sitting in my table. And so they're still looking just like me and I'm not inviting anybody different. And I don't even have to. Where I work at I'm the majority. Where I live at I'm the majority. Where I play at I'm the majority. So I'm inviting the same people to my church. We have done it a disservice when it comes to discipleship, because we say,'hey, this is what discipleship looks like.' And it's incomplete because it's only a cycle of people who look just like us coming to our own place and never stepped foot into any other area of where other people who are feeling the hurt or feeling injustice, who are being left out, voiceless, never having to step foot in that and feel the hurt, because here I am isolated to my own place. And so church actually perpetuated segregation more than any other place.
Speaker 1:Talk about that. Talk about when it comes to making disciples, God's calling. You know, this isn't just a good thing that Jamison feels like we should be doing, or Josh, or others. Because I think sometimes it's like, well, as a pastor, a leader, even just as a church attender,'well, I don't know if that's my calling. I don't know if that's what I'm called to engage in.' What do you say to the average Christ follower and leader who is saying,'man, how important is this?'
Speaker 2:The heart of the gospel is diversity. Like throughout the time, God is bringing people. And even through the New Testament, Jesus showed this-- and I showed this before, when he says Samaritan Lives Matter, it's the first place where he's taking his disciples. And they were like,'we don't go that way. We don't talk to Samaritans. They're lower than us.' And Jesus says,'no, I'm going to show you what this looks like. I'm not going to bring you to a classroom and talk about it. I'm going to take you with me.' Oftentimes we've relegated discipleship as, let me just teach you more, and never take you to that place, because they haven't stepped into those places as leaders. So I can only teach you what I know, what I've experienced. And so Jesus showed them that. Even Paul told Peter recognize his racial heart that he had. They had a side conversation in Galatians. Paul says to Peter, he said,'I have to publicly tell Peter his racism' because behind closed doors, Peter and Paul are talking about the great news of Jesus, what he's done, the reconciliation and then Peter then goes and is having a conversation with the Jews and he's celebrating them. He's hanging with Gentiles and the Jews walked in. He disowns the Gentiles. And Paul publicly says, no, that's racism. That's not what Jesus came to do. I'm going to point this out to you. And so the heart of the gospel was bringing Jews and Gentiles, free and slaves, male and female, bringing them into reconciliation so that we can worship Jesus together. Paul didn't know anything about homogeneous churches, bro. If we know anything about that man, he kept bringing reconciliation, bringing together. And so that is at the heart of the gospel, man. And for us to think that we can continue on, to try to have a specific group of people which we want to reach. I want hipster, cool, republican, suburbian area. Because the conversation goes,'well, they need Jesus too.' Yes, but you have to disciple them other than where you have them at. And so, m y heart really aches and I feel like God's heart really aches when that is not h appening. When the church should be leading the way in reconciliation a nd the church should be leading the way in diversity, when the church should be leading the way in,'how do we love one another?' So we socially, e conomically, don't have the same experience, but yet we come together in a place of w orship. We have not done that. And now that's why you think why people aren't coming to church because we haven't been d emonstrated.
Speaker 1:Right. No, I couldn't agree more. And you know, we talked about it earlier, but the church was God's vehicle to demonstrate reconciliation and restoration and inclusion. And it's not just a call for some, it's the heart of God. If we can't do it, nobody can do it. Who else is going to do it?
Speaker 2:Who else is going to do it? We should be leading. The world should be coming to us,'how are you guys doing this? Come teach us how you guys are doing it.' But they don't because we haven't. That's a huge issue where I feel like we have to better at that. We have to. My heart is man, I pray that our church planters, when pastors are thinking through, our first thing has to be diversity. Our first thing to go after is the heart of God. If we're not, then we're missing the gospel.
Speaker 1:I think about questions that I hear and exercises that church planters do. And they put together their ideal person that they want to attract or that they want to go after. I mean, literally there's a question it's like,'who is your ideal customer?' Is that an exercise or a question that should be asked? What's the right question that should be asking when it comes to going to plant a church or when it comes to understanding where God's calling you to be? I heard one pastor, a mega church pastor. One of the questions that they ask when they go plant a church is,'where is it going to be the most financially stable?' I mean, is that a question that we should be asking when we go to plant a church?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I've been to one of those assessments, Josh. I was there when I was getting ready. And they kept pushing'Jamison, who do you want to reach? You gotta narrow your target. Who do you want to reach?' I want to reach lost people in every sector. Like I don't want to be a church for the rich. I want to be the church for those who are hurting, those who are lost. Where does God call me where we can make impact in a space? How do we bring the rich, how do we bring the influential into spaces that they would never step into. Believe me, that's why I love Bridge and love where we're located, where you have to come from where you are at to where hurting people are at. Because you can never care about people you're not in proximity of. And the question should be,'where would Jesus be? Where would Jesus plant a church at? Go there.' Know what I mean?
Speaker 1:That's too hard, man. That's where the challenges are.
Speaker 2:It's like,'no, where would Jesus go, and go there.' We've done a disservice. Which is why things are continued to perpetuate in the church sector. We've narrowed it down to what's comfortable. What's your dream church? It's like, here's your dream church, or I want this group of people with this specific sound and this look, and I want this happening. I want aesthetically, my church to look like this and this and this. And we all have it. If you were to ask me my dream church, I'd tell you what it would look like, and all that kind of stuff. But then the thing is when I follow Jesus it's not about my dream church it's about His dream church. That's the difference. And we never ask what Jesus' dream church is. It's always about our dream church.
Speaker 1:Come on, man. That's the word. That's the word right there. We're always asking what is my dream church? Instead of saying, God, what is your dream church? And just maybe, God's dream church is different than ours.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:I mean, you look at the local expressions. I know God's dream church isn't a church of division. It's a church of diversity. And so we can start with some of those practicalities. So you know, whether it's a pastor, a leader, a church member, what are some practical things we can do to move towards being a part of building multi-ethnic expressions? What are either things you've done or how do you help coach, teach, encourage people?
Speaker 2:Well, always say one, just the beginning is you gotta start with your heart. What's your heart? Has God changed your heart? Because until then it'll never be authentic. It'll always be something you're trying to strive to do. It will never come from a place of genuine change and transformation. So a ll t his s tuff, I m ean, I pray,'God keep changing my heart for your heart.' And then when you process that out, here's my next steps. Step into places where things are already happening, w here I can step into and learn. Like my first thing was who is doing it and how can I learn. So places like Abide a nd Bridge, a place where churches where they're actually doing it, w here I can step into is huge. And then the next thing is, who am I learning from? So if I'm only learning from a specific genre, now I've gotta change my learning pattern. Black people that I can learn from, w ho some black pastors and leaders, communicators, business people who I can learn from. And then now I start that process and I start taking my leadership through that. We start learning together. We start stepping into some things together which then trickles down to staff and then trickles down to congregation. And you've g ot t o ask yourself this question, when you start doing this,'am I willing to pay the cost for t he leadership? Because the cost, that's the biggest hindrance to people not transitioning and moving i s because it comes at a cost a nd people, and y ou've s een it now, people leaving people say,'hey, if you start talking this way, you start moving this direction. I'm gonna stop giving. I'm gonna stop coming. Me and my big giving family will stop.' And so you g otta be saying,'I'm willing to pay the cost b ecause I believe in it that much.' And when you're willing to do that, God starts o pening up doors and people start coming in and start being a p art. When you start saying, when everyone can feel a little uncomfortable sometime during this service, we're doing good. If only one group of p eople is feeling comfortable, then we haven't hit the marker. And so we have knitting in, how do we feel uncomfortable in t he section of c hurch? And so those are big pivotal moments starting with starting with the heart, my heart, God keep changing it, that reflects who you are. And then let me as a leader, take those steps myself, because I can never lead people to places I've never been. And doing that genuinely, and building relationships, I tell you, watch the change happen. Then you start reflecting God's n ame. And then it starts changing communities. It starts changing cities, starts changing everybody. Because what we gain is far more than what we lose. And if a few people are willing to leave and walk away, because you know the heart of God, that's okay because who G od brings is awesome. B ut oh my gosh, I did not see that happen. And it's so beautiful, man. It is so beautiful. Now, if you believe that a nd lean into that, God does amazing t hings.
Speaker 1:So good, bro. I love that you start with the change that happens in all of us. It has to become personal before we can start leading out and being a part of the change. And your life is such a testament to that. Just the way God has changed you, the position you're in today and how God is using you to build a multi-ethnic expression, to speak into other churches, work with other organizations. I know you're doing a little coaching and encouraging with leaders right now and going to be doing more of that in the future. I mean, I just know there are going to be pastors, leaders, and also just lay people who would say,'man, I want to be coached. I want to learn. I want to grow in this.' How can they connect with you? How can they follow you? How can they learn from some of the things that you guys have been doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So'm working on, man, it's exciting. I was hesitant to start it just because of fear of anything. I really feel that within my heart, that there are churches who really want to be multi-ethnic. They really want to step into that place and just don't know how, or they don't have someone to really talk out,'here's how we are. Here's where we really are at. This is what we're really feeling. But how do I lead this into being healed and whole and becoming what God wants us to do.' So I'm working on that, it's called'c2 Leadership' and it's going to be coming out here in 2021. Putting together some assessments with that, and some resources and then some consulting and culture for that. So right now just follow me-- Jamison. I am right now on Instagram, and be on the lookout in the next couple of months for c2 Leadership.
Speaker 1:Come on, come on, man. c2 Leadership. Check it out 2021. And then in the meantime, go follow my man, Jamison Horton. Seriously. See what they're doing. Go check out their church, CityLight Benson, right here in Omaha if you're in the area. Love you, man. Love your wife. Love how God is using you. So grateful for your leadership as a whole. And just, man, we know we believe that the church is the hope of the world. And just praying and believing that as followers of Jesus, the influence He's given us, we can be a part of building those expressions that draw people that represent the heart of God and ultimately further the kingdom. So just want to encourage you. If you're listening, if you're watching man, use your influence, learn, grow, allow God to change you, to give you more of His heart. And then allow and be willing to take the bold steps of moving into places where you can be a part of the solution wherever you are, in whatever city God's called you to. So again, thanks Jay. Love you, bro.
:Appreciate you so much. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. Well, if you want to check out our other podcasts or subscribe, you can go to wherever there are podcasts being shared. Always want to encourage you. You don't have to do everything, but God has gifted you to do something. And so make sure you use your influence to impact the world right where you are. Can't wait to see you next time.
